tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2929230674420493712.post6740703287013440912..comments2023-10-29T05:49:43.035-05:00Comments on Anglican Action: When Is a Church Building Like a National Park?Ralph Webbhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03329435927946230893noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2929230674420493712.post-37941888185784601152007-08-15T18:17:00.000-05:002007-08-15T18:17:00.000-05:00Spotsyltuckian,After a lengthy time away from blog...Spotsyltuckian,<BR/><BR/>After a lengthy time away from blogging, I'm only now getting to respond to your concerns and criticisms.<BR/><BR/>You're right, of course, "that the spirit of [a] congregation [isn't] connected to a specific property." And, yes, ministries can pick up in different locations. I am glad to hear of your ministries and how they are continuing.<BR/><BR/>But let's put ourselves in the position of a rector (I am not one, and I assume the same is true for you)who can no longer stay in TEC, and with a parish where the vast majority of the congregation voted to leave. Some ministries are easier to move to different locations than others. Let's say that you have a daycare center or a preschool with dozens of children. How in the world can you leave a building where you have room for such ministries, and where you don't have to raise additional money to keep them afloat?<BR/><BR/>And what if you're a mother or father of teenagers and you were one of many parishioners who just in the last two years contributed financially to expanded youth facilities? Why would you suddenly feel that you can -- or should -- just up and leave a property? <BR/><BR/>These are the type of heart issues with which I'm concerned. And yes, the concerns of those like yourself who see their parishes leave are just as important.<BR/><BR/>That's why I advocate the diocese and the national church coming to the table with departing Anglicans -- so that all of these issues can be addressed, and so that some solutions can, by God's grace, be reached.<BR/><BR/>See my next-to-last paragraph in this post for a better way in which things could be handled.<BR/><BR/>God bless,<BR/>Ralph WebbRalph Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03329435927946230893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2929230674420493712.post-54516812039667215222007-08-15T18:15:00.000-05:002007-08-15T18:15:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Ralph Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03329435927946230893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2929230674420493712.post-37543077023508815332007-06-30T10:45:00.000-05:002007-06-30T10:45:00.000-05:00I wanted to go more fully in responding to Ralph a...I wanted to go more fully in responding to Ralph as I was in a hurry before. <BR/><BR/><BR/>As I said, my TEC congregation is currently worshipping in a former TEC property abandoned by its congregation. In our part of the county, before 2003, there were three TEC parishes. Two were conservative, the other, mine, was a place where hot-button issues did not impact on fellowship; it was essentially neither progressive or orthodox. <BR/><BR/>After 2003, as I said, one parish did successfully negotiate with the Diocese, and has leased its church for a period of 5 years at nominal cost until they can build a new church elsewhere (plus agreeing to a fair market settlement on the property overall with the Diocese). The second parish abandoned its property. The third parish, mine, held a vote to leave TEC, claimed the property, and filed documents with the court to that effect. They didn't 'sue' but did they did claim the property in a civil filing with the County court. After that action, the Diocese took the matter to court - what other choice do you suggest was open to them at that point? We, who voted against leaving TEC, moved into the abandoned parish. There wasn't any time where we were not the original parish - we just shifted a few miles to the north.<BR/><BR/>Ralph asks what's to happen to all of the ministries when the whole parish departs if all the parishioners must leave the building? I can tell Ralph that we who remain members of TEC have cranked up ministires in our new location, indeed, we even chair the local ecumencial council on outreach and local shelter funding and meals provision. I teach Adult Ed; my wife teaches Sunday school. We have music, acolytes - we really haven't skipped a beat.<BR/><BR/>Ralph asks if property questions relate to ecclesiastical ones. As I said, the Holy Spirit led us at the old site, and still leads us at the new one, within the greater corporate body of TEC, the Diocese, and the Communion.<BR/><BR/>If Ralph is truly interested in reconciliation, perhaps it would be a good thing if he stops calling us heretics, as he does, in this piece.<BR/><BR/>Gosh, I find Bishop Katharine to be a person absolutely inclined toward grace and reconciliation, if at all possible, hardly one to ever unilaterally cut anyone off. A prime example: when she was asked how she felt when African Bishops would not take communion with her, she replied, "I'd still take communion with them." When asked if she was angry, she replied: No, just sad." This isn't a portrait of a villian, as Ralph portrays. <BR/><BR/>TEC is not hostile to orthodox faith. How many times do we have to say we want to worship in a Church that is broad enough to accomodate both progressive and orthodox viewpoints. The problem, it seems to me, is that the orthodox are unwilling to accomodate the progressive one (or heretical one, as Ralph chooses to name it). <BR/><BR/>We, in TEC, don't care more for property than our brethren. But here's how this Episcoplian sees it: the Anglicans instigated a schism. Their plans all along were to be recognized as the sole Anglican body in the U.S. and to seize the property, therefore, by right. That didn't happen. At this point, courts in Florida, South Carolina, Pittsburgh and California have ruled the property remains within TEC. I've seen Anglicans now claiming to be victims and low on funds to hire lawyers. I have to admit: I'm just not that sympathetic. <BR/><BR/>I'm surprised that Ralph, and his fellow IRD members have not opened their wallets to assist the parishes they've encouraged to split. Perhpas they are conceding the property as a lost cause? <BR/><BR/>I'll leave it at this: from the time we landed in our new temporary parish, until the suits are settled, and the old property is regained, its been a time of many blessings. We've been on the receiving end of much generosity and good will from churches all over the country. Our ministries are thriving. We've seen the numbers attending services just about double with newcomers, with more arriving every Sunday. Sometimes, a 'time-out' turns out to be a blessing, and this one, is feeling more and more like that all the time. There's some deprivation in our new digs, but there's a grace and beauty shining through - the love of our Lord sustains us.<BR/><BR/>If/when it comes time to reconcile, I'm willing, but I'd still insist on the justice of full inclusion, and a promise from those who've returned, that never again will we as a body tolerate intolerance. Under those conditions, after all the court proceedings are done, this progressive is, and always has, been willing to resume worship alongside the orthodox in love and fellowship.The Spotsyltuckianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09043511735831648182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2929230674420493712.post-63736694428428596872007-06-30T08:01:00.000-05:002007-06-30T08:01:00.000-05:00I am currently worshipping in an abandoned church ...I am currently worshipping in an abandoned church after the Anglicans seized our parish property here in Virginia. First, one thing we've found is that the spirit of our congregation wasn't connected to a specific property - it goes where we do. Second, though, this constant charge about how the Diocese cut off negotiations is bunk. The negotiations were on-going until parishes, like mine, took their two-prong vote in the midst of it: (1) to leave TEC; and (2) to retain the property. At that point, a willing Diocese realized negotiations were over and took the only remaining actions available. Case in point, All Saints, in Dale City, did successfully negotiate with a Diocese on very gracious terms; they are renting back their 'Anglican' space for five years at a cost of $1 a year until they build a new church on property they had already purchased outside of TEC-parish funds. I find Anglican language so nuanced, whether it deals with property, or by the prospective, so far, unconvincing would-be Bishop of South Carolina. I'm a bureaucrat by trade; I only wish I could write memo's with holes big enough to drive trucks through like Ralph has here, and as Mark Lawrence, has done in his bid to become a Bishop.The Spotsyltuckianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09043511735831648182noreply@blogger.com